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Post by HiTemp on Jul 3, 2015 19:30:54 GMT -7
So you're one cop of many present at a public fishing pier. There is one person fishing who is wearing a handgun open-carried in a vertical shoulder holster, the kind that the firearm is drawn straight toward the front. Rather than make contact or possibly have another officer cover the dude with a firearm while you make verbal contact, you decide to - alone - sneak up behind said fisherman without warning and, from behind, snatch his firearm from out of the holster. Said firearm owner happened to be there as part of an open-carry event where these folks lawfully exercise their legal right to open carry firearms under one of the exemptions allowed by state law: to carry while engaging in hunting, camping, or fishing or while traveling to or from. This fellow also had a concealed firearm on his weak side. As he felt someone suddenly make a grab for his gun, he dropped his fishing pole and used his right arm for weapon retention as he began to draw his backup (concealed) firearm, then turned around fully prepared to shoot his attacker to the ground. At the last possible second he saw the uniform and badge and let go, raising his hands up and surrendering to the idiot cop. After they took him into custody and took both firearms, they took his phone and went through all his pictures, contacts, and texts. They asked if he had any other firearms with him and when he said he had one more in his car, they took his car keys and confiscated that weapon as well, searching his car without consent. They ran the serials of all his firearms. When he attempted to tell one of the officers that what he was doing was perfectly legal, the officer told him to squelch it, saying "I don't want to hear that sh*t!" After an hour of detaining this guy they finally realized they could not charge him with anything so they issued him a trespass order banning him from the pier for a year. This week he and a gun rights advocacy group called Florida Carry sued the city of Tampa, the Mayor of Tampa, the Chief of Police, and all five officers involved for violating his rights and using a trespass order to ban activity specifically allowed by law, and by issuing the order they effectively enact (against state law) a more restrictive firearms policy/law than the state legislature authorized. The statute specifically prohibits a defense against these charges from coming out of taxpayer funds, thus all of those individuals have no immunity exemption and must bear the cost of defense all on their own, mayor, chief, and officers. The penalty is spelled out in the statutes as $5000 in punitive damages and if the plaintiff prevails, they'll be paying his legal costs too. I don't feel sorry for them. I hope the guy cleans their clock in court and it's looking as though he will. The city attorney was contacted before every one of these public events (as was the LE agencies) and told what was planned, given copies of applicable laws, etc. The city attorney told them they no longer had to contact him before events because they were well aware of the laws and there hadn's been any issues, the cops know what they are about, etc. Guess they didn't after all. Wonder what they'd all be thinking now had the guy drawn, turned, and put 3 in the face of the stupid cop trying to grab his gun out of his holster? Wonder how'd those cops would react if someone tried that with their duty weapons? Story here There is a link to the text of the lawsuit on that page. |
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Post by Grug - American Neanderthal on Jul 3, 2015 19:56:05 GMT -7
Its not uncommon for cops to make up law on the spot, and far more often then not the punishment is "meh, they were just trying to do their duty and not liable", they do have some discretion on enforcement, they have no discretion on making crap up to cover their mistakes. And I think we know how that would end if it was the other way around, we would have another protest over a cop killing someone, and if it was a minority, probably riots to boot because of it.
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Post by HiTemp on Jul 3, 2015 22:41:22 GMT -7
Yeah except this time they're not getting away with it because the legislature was fully aware of these mayors and police chiefs who don't like it that they can't have their private gun control rules and ordinances to effectively step all over one's Second Amendment rights and they took the time to spell out penalties for any official who tries to impose their own will over state law. That penalty is up to a $5K assessment for damages and no immunity/public funds to defend against lawsuits.
Applicable Florida Statute is as follows. Note sections (2)(b) and (3)(c) and (d)
You know I can sort of understand when cops get a man-with-gun call from someone who is afraid of guns or is overreacting to the appearance of an armed person out of fear that it could be a Columbine in the making. I get all that. But if the LE agencies will not make the effort to get their 911 dispatchers to at least ASK "what is he doing? Is the gun holstered or is he pointing it around at something or someone?" then the cops have some kind of duty to make a reasonable assessment of the situation and not blindly swarm in there like they are DEA agents serving a no-knock warrant.
This guy was in possession of an openly carried firearm - legally, and with the city and PD notified ahead of time he and others would be there for the purpose of handing out leaflets and engaging others in conversation in order to spread awareness that their activity was legal. Many Floridians, especially in the cities, do not even know open carry is legal under some circumstances, and this group is trying to raise their awareness and dispel fear that any armed man equals a threat. The guy was also in possession of a fishing pole with both hands on it. I can't see any conceivable way a reasonable conclusion could be made that an armed guy fishing with both hands equals something to be terrified of. So where these cops get off even attempting a forced disarm of any sort is beyond me, but it's especially stupid when trying it by surprise with the victim having no idea it's a cop until it was almost too late.
Certainly the city of Tampa and its PO-LEECE Dept. aren't going to speak on the suit and they'll certainly ask for a 30-day extension to the 20 days they have to answer the lawsuit. Strangely, the police union is also dead silent on the matter, and that more than anything tells me that someone internally at least is acknowledging that the officer definitely screwed the pooch on this one. I can't even imagine them going to trial and getting raked over the coals on the stand about what normal protocol is versus the actions they took. Then issuing a trespass order for exercising a legal right specifically granted by the legislature? Pfffttt. They're toast.
I read this morning that some 82nd Airborne soldier showed up a shopping mall in North Cackalakee in full battle rattle intending to have his photo taken in all his gear and with his long gun. Ooops! Not exactly the best plan strolling into a shopping mall totin' yer shootin' iron wearing armor and covered in loaded mags, especially with DHS issuing terrorist warnings out the gazoo for this weekend. Notice, though, that when the cops arrived they ID'ed themselves by walking up in uniform and asking WTH this guy was up to. And he calmly told them, then fully cooperated with the LEOs. It didn't take sneaking up on him from behind and suddenly snatching his weapon. Something maybe the Tampa PD Training Officer might take note of. You know, in case some day they run into an armed fisherman down at the city fishing pier or something.
He didn't get a trespass order to stay out of the mall for a year. Looks like his CO is more upset than the local LE guys are. Likely he'll suffer more punishment back on the base then the civil authorities will give him if they give him any at all. It appears those LEOs recognize the difference between criminality and plain ol' stupidity or bad judgment.
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Post by Grug - American Neanderthal on Jul 4, 2015 11:13:07 GMT -7
When you open carry you can and should expect a cop at some point to interact with you. But getting arrested etc is way over the top and usually they get a lot of room to do it without consequence. In this case trying to disarm someone like that is just plain stupid regardless of what was going on.
The guy in the mall, was not in true full battle rattle, he had his pack, gear and rifle, but jeans and T-shirt. I don't know what some of these open carry guys think at times. I open carry at times, but not semi auto rifles into crowded public places and then wonder why they are disarmed, cuffed forcibly searched like its some sort of intrusion. But I suspect he will get a lesson from the CO about it that at the very least will leave his ears ringing.
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Post by HiTemp on Jul 4, 2015 13:59:39 GMT -7
When you open carry you can and should expect a cop at some point to interact with you. But getting arrested etc is way over the top and usually they get a lot of room to do it without consequence. In this case trying to disarm someone like that is just plain stupid regardless of what was going on. In today's world I think anyone open carrying anywhere ought to be prepared for some frightened person or some anti-2nd type to call it in to 911 and make it sound far more dire than it is. This is the primary reason why this particular open-carry group goes to such great lengths ahead of time to send letters of intent to the city attorney, Chief of PD, County Sheriff, and city officials like mayors or city managers in order to make them all fully aware of where they will be, when they'll be there, what they'll be doing (open carrying holstered firearms while engaging in fishing), and copies of the state statutes that pertain to this being a perfectly legal activity. It isn't like they planned this 15 min before and just showed up unannounced. It's also not the first time they've conducted this activity at that location. It's for THOSE reasons I see the action of the Tampa PD as all that more egregious because it stinks of someone deciding they didn't like it so let's go down there and start hassling them one at a time. The only viable reason those cops could have gone in there and did what they did is because they had actual probable cause that a crime was being committed, and not just reasonable suspicion. Courts have already ruled aplenty that you cannot interfere with a person's right to conduct a legal activity based only on reasonable suspicion, it takes probable cause. It's the same legal reasoning that says you can't arrest someone because you "think" they might do something against the law. About every two or three years we get a surge here in FL of efforts to legalize open carry or at least expand the situations in which open carry is given as an exception to the rule of otherwise NOT doing it. Personally, I don't have anything against it per se, but in today's political climate I don't support it. There are too many people out there who are scared of guns or are ignorant of guns. They would think nothing of flooding emergency dispatch with calls in reaction to the mere presence of a gun on a person, caring to know nothing else about the situation. What I foresee would be a string of incidents one after the other that would burden law enforcement and give the media something to frenzy about. "ANOTHER man with gun call today... details at 7!" And you know the media isn't going to report the normal guy simply walking down the street armed, they're going to find someone who would make the final cut on "Jackass" open carrying in the most unsafe, ridiculous way possible in order to fit their template of armed = insane. They'll find the guy with a shoulder rig on a motorcycle with a "Make my day!" bumper sticker. Or some young guy with little to no weapons/safety training who is dinking around with his firearm in public, finger on the trigger, etc. You know, the kind who get banned from a range in the first five minutes. You can exercise the same rights with concealed carry and avoid all of that potential bad public relations. I wish it were a different world where people actually thought things based on truth or facts, but we aren't in that world anymore. Too many Bloomberg babies who've never held a weapon but know all about "assault weapons." |
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Post by Grug - American Neanderthal on Jul 4, 2015 15:45:56 GMT -7
I am of the mind open carry to get the public used to seeing guns is not bad thing, the inordinate fear some people have is because of the stigma some have placed on them being banned, in perception anyway.
But of course you get people who go over the top for the look at me effect, and some who use it as a form of protest. The latter tend be ready for police and the negative attention where the others are generally not.
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Post by HiTemp on Jul 5, 2015 4:51:12 GMT -7
Exactly, and unfortunately those in the latter group will receive all the press like the others simply didn't exist. Wasn't two weeks ago one of the city papers in south FL ran an article quoting statistics from the something Bill Maher put on his Facebook page back in April. It apparently originated from Richard Branson. It's been refuted so many times it's pathetic yet it is still quoted. Here is the posting:  Notice the "last year" along with West Germany, a country that hasn't existed for more than 20 years. Apparently some anti's cut n' paste must have raged out of control. That and how rare you hear about a lawful use of a weapon for self defense that thwarts the crime, shots fired or not, unless it's a former CNN reporter in a Motel 6. I believe the bad press that would accompany blanket open carry being made legal would do more harm than good. At least with a CWL there is a some minimum training and a background check. I can't see how they'd prevent Joe Sixpack from having no background check, no training, and if he bought a weapon in a private sale, no background check at purchase either. I'm not sure I want to see that and have the ones who slipped through the cracks and act stupidly used as the face of lawful weapon owners/carriers. With so much lying with impunity in the public arena, I really don't want to give them any more to argue against what shaved-down rights we already have. It's only going to take a couple nitwits to get themselves shot and maybe killed while acting stupidly with their open carried firearm to start bringing political pressure to bear on politicians who support what we have now but just barely. There are idiots on YouTube who go out in public with fake guns and act like they're pulling an armed robbery on others - all staged with fake guns - just to film it and put it up on You Tube as a joke, calling attention to the people nearby and their reaction or lack of one. One day one of them will do it and get himself drilled by an armed citizen or an off-duty cop and once again the guns will be blamed for all of it. Not some dumbass YouTube attention seeker, but the guns. Justice to dumbasses only comes rarely, like the guy here in P'cola that tried his hand at the "knockout" game while being filmed for YouTube but by chance happened to pick a guy who's been training in MMA fighting for four years. Not only did he fail in his attempt to knockout but lost a few teeth before he lost consciousness four solid punches later. His cameraman fared slightly better; he went down with one punch. Was funny watching it on the local news because the Sheriff's Dept. spokesperson could barely keep from laughing while talking to the reporter on camera. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. |
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Post by Grug - American Neanderthal on Jul 5, 2015 7:34:13 GMT -7
Those memes like that are annoying, but play effectively to casual readers. I know many people who will see that on facebook and use it as fact in argument, never bothering to check it out much less think it out. Its an outright lie. According to the FBI, the latest stats show 8400 firearm homicides in 2013.
Things that should be taken into account like aside from the fact that Japan has some of the most strict gun control on the planet being as possibly close to eliminating guns from their populace as is possible, and being an island with strict border and port control and constant surveillance, still people die from being shot, and in 2012 there were supposedly only 1020 homicides altogether. We have 2.5 times more people choke to death and half again as many as all homicides in Japan are stabbings. But boy the total number sure looks bad in comparison. Twain had it right, lies, damn lies, and statistics.
What kind of simpletons think staging an armed robbery in public is a good thing to do, its not grand theft auto where you can pause, or simply load from asaved gamae when you are perforated with 40 cal.
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Post by HiTemp on Jul 5, 2015 16:08:21 GMT -7
Wouldn't be such a big deal if it was just one idiot performing in such a way as to almost guarantee his removal from the gene pool. The problem is his foolish act is going to place someone else in a situation where they believe they are doing the right thing for a fellow human being but end up merely executing a moron. Of course the moron's family will have something to say about it; the LEOs and prosecutor's office will have something to say about it; the media will have LOTS to say about the gun nut blasting away at an unarmed kid who was merely playing a harmless joke; and the public will have something to say about it.
If the fool wants to throw his own life away, fine, long as he doesn't permanently mar the life and reputation of someone else on his way out the door.
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