More Racing Fun

[ferocious]

Since we started Foxberg years ago I've often wondered why we stuck with the RatRace pit stops- 1 per 70 lap race and 2 in a 140.

It seems to me it would make make more sense, esp. in a "beginners" event to have more pits. Keep the 2 oz Sullivan tank, but require 2 or 3 pits in a 70 lap race, with no shutoffs. CL racing is mostly about about pitting. This would give the flyers a lot more practice landing and takin off and restarting- the fun parts. The pitter would have to do a good job short tanking on every start to do well.

[jimthomerson]

As an expitperson, I agree with your point. Don't you think RC Pylon racing, which is rather boring to watch, would be much more interesting if they had pitstops like in CL racing?

Jim

[peabody]

TEXTI kinda like the idea of shorter heats as intros....we fly 8 minute heats, and 15 minute features....8 minutes with one mandatory pit, no shut offs...

Initially, the shorter heats are significantly more fun for all involved.......

See Ya
Peabody

[jimthomerson]

I have never understood the logic of having both restricted tank size and mandatory pitstops. If you have restricted tank size, why not let people experiment with trying to eleminate pitstops? If you require pitstops, why not let people carry all the fuel they want?

Jim

[peabody]

Jim....
I thought that Clown and Foxberg were supposed to be "Intro" classes? As introduction to racing, where pit stops are part of the event at the more refined levels, I think that it's a good idea to require them....
Or has Foxberg/Clown become just another racing event for the experienced, much as Profile Carrier?
If you want growth (apparently there are some "movers and shakers" in controline that think that growth isn't good), then there has to be a place for entry level events....and those events should not be populated with folks with significantly higher skill levels.

[jimthomerson]

The reason stunt has prospered, and other CL events have not, is the PAMPA skill classes, which allow one to compete with a group of more or less peers. None of the other CL events have the subjective scoring which characterizes stunt, therefore the development of skill classes is very difficult to impossible. The fact is the other CL competition areas do not have enough mass to have skill classes, and therefore will not prosper unless stunt grows enough to bulk them up with spillover.

Take racing, which I have done a lot of, no matter what the rules are, an experienced racing team will almost always win over a novice team. The problem is there aren't enough people racing to have beginner, intermediate, advanced, and expert classes.

Jim

[johnt4051]

A couple of thoughts ...
Don't know the history in other areas, but the two-pit final started in our Northwest Sport Race back in the '70s, when the event was created to cater to the kind of sport profile the average guy might have on his shop wall. Those airplanes typically had a tank suited to two pit stops. Then, after many years, the rationale became: Everybody has set their planes up for two pits, why change? If we were starting from scratch, we probably would go with three, which is the usual for 140 laps. However, in a beginner event, probably one fewer pit stops is a good thing; makes the event 1/3 less difficult for the novice team.
Regading skill classes, I think they make a lot of sense in aerobatics but not much sense in the events like racing, carrier and combat, because those events are divided up into a different type of de facto skill class: the various different types of the competition, some of which are designed for entry-level competitors. Sport race is the "beginner" racing skill class. Rat race is "expert."
Finally, I personally am glad to see the "pro" racers competiting in sport race, for this reason: If you limit an event of this type to beginners, what you end up with is perpetual beginners. In our region, the "pro" pilots make an effort to train the novices during races, dispensing advice and help as the race goes on. A few races in the circle with a pro brings a novice along rapidly. Similarly, the pit crews help one another out. It's not at all rare to see a "pro" pitman go over to the novice pit and help the beginner. Sure, the pros win most of the races. But, hey, it's a contest. Nowhere is it written that you pay your entry fee and get a trophy. You have to earn it with study and practice -- and the quickest way to get competitive is to rub elbows with the best.
--jt

[jimthomerson]

Good point about how one learns to race. Another reason why skill classes don't work in other events. In stunt, you are out there flying by yourself and the rubbing elbows takes place outside the circle, so it makes less difference what your skill level is.

I think it is true in all CL events that more experienced people help less experienced. One of the things I like about CL.

Jim

[peabody]

Jim:
I won't hold you friendship with Ted against you....
You hit the nail on the head regarding skill classes...
The same crap happens in Carrier and combat...
.15 Carrier has the same posse at the top that is at the top of Class I or II. Profile is at least as confusing as any other class, and the same bunch dominates....

Clown and Foxberg were conceived as ENTRY classes, yet dominated by experienced racers and pit crew.

Speed limit combat see similar happenings...Phil will argue that a combat match with an good flyer improves the neophyte....but combat doesn't seem to be experiencing wild growth either...


Good points...I believe that if the racers, combateers and Carrier guys actually proposed workable and simple entry classes and stuck to them, that these events would grow.
See Ya
Peabody

[jimthomerson]

I think speedlimit combat comes closest to being an entry-level event. Getting a competitive airplane, engine, etc. together is within the capability of a knowledgable sport flier. But there are two intrinsic problems. First there are not enough combat fliers to support skill classes, or to limit speedlimit to novice competitors. Secondly, without in the circle interaction with experienced fliers, the novice learning curve could be fairly slow.

Unless other areas can somehow duplicate what was accomplished with skill classes in stunt, I don't see much growth for them. I also don't know what other areas need to do, or can do, to grow.

Jim

[jj5167]

Several years ago I tried as the Prez of the Navy Carrier Society to try and get started some skill classes based on 4 or 5 years worth of scores that had been posted. At that time the newsletter editor also did the same with a slight difference in postings based on a slightly different approach. The rank and file of the NCS wanted it started, the result...NADA.
When any special interest group drops membership from 120 to 70 the hand writting is on the wall. When the turnout in racing events like Clown drop from 18 to 20 entrants to no event being offered because of lack of entry something is radically wrong.
Perhaps the only solution is to name a date and time, say 1/1/06 at 12Noon. Pave over any remaining interest/entry, and start all over again.
There are those that wil offer.." hey, after a couple of years the best now will be the best then" I say "SO WHAT?" Wouldn't it be better to have 35 entries at the Nats in Profile Carrier, all trying to do their best, than the same old 12 or so?

I ramble too much. John T. you can quote me on this in FL if you want. Ditto to John Vlna.

Joe Just

[peabody]

Joe:
The NCS grouses about "obsoleting" equipment when it comes to Profile...Profile should and could be an entry level event...when explaining to neophytes that it is necessary to have a reverse rotation crank, line sliders and 50% nito, their eeyes glaze over...
Profile carrier would grow, and the other classes might, too, if reverse cranks were disallowed, no line sliders and 10% fuel....
See Ya
Peabody

[jimthomerson]

As I recall, the original idea was that you could use the same airplane and engine for Slow Rat, Slow Combat and Profile Carrier. I think this was some of the reason behind Fast Richard's Mongoose. That situation didn't last too long. The difference between rules for Slow Rat, etc, and Speed Limit Combat is this. The Slow Rat rules were supposed to keep speeds down, and first thing you know the Nashville Rats are running 116 MPH with Testors 35's. Speed Limit sets the speed and you can go fast as you want up to 75 0r 80 MPH (depending on which set of rules).

Jim

[iflyf2c]

Hi guys I`m not sure if you know but there is a class that provides a reasonably level playing field.It is F2F or F2CN...Two experts (experienced racers) aren`t allowed to team up & if you win more than **(not sure of Number) races in a season you are both classed as experts & must pair up with 2 newbies for the next season.Loads of fun , reasonably cheap & not too fast for the 3 up races yet not so slow that its boring/easy.This class was introduced to ultimately get more teams involved in F2C.I think the french thought it up.
Ian

[jimthomerson]

Unfortuneately there is not a lot of f2c flown in the USA. It's my impression that team racing as such was always more popular in England and on the continent than in the USA. From reading old Aeromodellers it seems to me that various classes of team race were the dominant control line events in England through the
50's and maybe early 60's. Are you talking about the class for profile airplanes? How about Phantom racing? I guess the Clown racing mentioned above is our closest analog.

Jim

[drolley]

Actually F2CN, also called Simple Team Race (STR) has spread to the States. Of course, we couldn't just adopt someone else's rules. But it is here and was flown at the 2004 Nats.

The rules can be found here:

www.nclra.org/Rules/F2CN.html

Dave

[jehold66203]

Its been awhile since I have been to this site. Was cleaning up E-Mail files and thought this was another site I go to. Reading about begginers events was interesting. I think Wichita had the best rules for a beginner racing event. They were limited to one airplane design/kit(Goldberg Shoestring). One engine(Fox 35 Stunt). One fuel tank(Fox 1 ounce). All the other stuff was available at the hobby shop. When they started letting the other Goldberg kits in it started falling off. The best rule was entrant had to fly his/her own entry.

In Navy Carrier we have Sportsman class, but, it allows the regular profiles with sliders and left hand engines. I compete with Roberts Bearcat built per the plans. No line slider. I have suggested limiting Sportsman Carrier to planes that do not have line sliders and available engines from hobby shop. Even my own flying partner put down on that one. I still contend that you have to get their interest before hitting them with all the stuff it takes to make a Navy Carrier that flies like a helicopter. My opinion. Anyway stunt is still a challenge for me. Still love getting good pit stops in racing and playing with low speed in carrier(no hanging). Gone to VSC, DOC