PAMPA Vice President Statement: Response to:

[tperry2054]

I very recently posted a message on the Stuka Stunt Forum that Mr. Neuman didn't see fit to leave on there. My message was not merely locked down like most of the others. It was deleted, twice.

I wonder if it will survive the light of day here?

Here's the Message followed by a public message by Mr. Neuman and my response:


Very early this morning I posted a message in this forum subject was Vice Presidential Statement. I don't know why it has disappeared. I am repeating it verbatim just as I posted it previously.

Second try:

Mr. Fancher,

I’ve just complete reading your campaign statement, for about the 30th time or so, still find it as depressing as when I first read it. For the first column and first paragraph it is fine, Your bonafides certainly appear to be in order, no argument there. I know of nothing, up ‘til now that would keep me from voting for you in any office PAMPA has to offer.

Starting with the second column, second paragraph the remainder of your statement has to be the most condescending, patronizing, mean spirited, insincere garbage it has ever been my displeasure to read. The reason I consider it insincere is that I don’t consider you a stupid person. I know I don’t buy what you’re attempting to sell.

My impression is Mr. Brodak will never fit in to your “good ol’e boys club” no matter how he conducts himself. I guess I could have said mutual admiration society, but some how good ol’e boys seems to fit a little better. We can’t let this Brodak feller tell us anointed ones what to do, Yea you tell ‘em Bubba, teach ‘em to screw with usuns.

The disagreement between Mr. Brodak and Mr. Tiahrt seems to be one of the bones of contention that are getting a lot of press. Why? Am I to understand that two supposedly grown men can’t work it out between them. It seems to me that if enough people keep picking at a scab it will never heal and mean time it can cause nothing but irritation and suffering.

Mr. Brodak didn’t call a meeting of the Executive Council? Shame on him! Wait a minute… did anyone ask him to? Communication is a two way street. Can anyone of the whiners or complainers honestly say they have tried to help Mr. Brodak and PAMPA with out demanding he “suck up” or bow to the PAMPA elite?

I didn’t vote for Mr. Brodak, I don’t even know him. I might not even like him if I did know him. I didn’t vote for him because I joined PAMPA after the last election. I understand he won by a large margin. Is that the real problem, one of the anointed didn’t win? Could it possibly be that it is one of the "my ball my rules" or I’m gonna take it and go home? Do you feel as some have said that PAMPA has been hijacked? Do you think that the constant nit picking will solve anything? I don’t.

Mr. Brodak signs off with “Your Friend in CL” and you can sincerely find fault with that? Good lord that is really petty.

If enough people think stunt and sport Control Liners should form separate organizations, why not get it out in the open and talk about it instead of just continuing to be rude to one another? This contentious, internecine bickering certainly isn’t doing sport, stunt or Control Line in general any good.

Tight Lines,

Tom Perry



LNeumann
Charter Member
6015 posts Sep-24-04, 10:12 AM (CDT)

"procedures"

Just another comment for all in general. In trying to cool a certain issue I locked down certain topics, and, yes, deleted a few others. I try to run fair and balanced. I try to allow a lot of lee way in topics and discussions. But I also set rules. And I also reserve the right to delete, and to do so without question.
In the past I have had several people resurrect topics that I deleted. I had to delete them again. There are times I will contact people when doing so in order to explain to them why I am doing so. But if I delete a topic, I have done so for a reason. If you have a question as to the reason, you can contact me direct. But you are a guest here. This is not a democracy. I reserve editorial rights. The lawyers will go after me, not you.

Leonard Neumann



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tperry2054
Member since Dec-23-03
284 posts Sep-24-04, 10:41 AM (CDT)

1. "RE: procedures"
In response to message #0

LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-04 AT 10:44 AM (CDT)

There goes the second post I've written to this forum on this subject. Where does one go for equal time? I suppose I could have written it and buried it in one of the other posts and it may have survived longer. I made it a separate post because I wanted it to be read. I wasn't looking for a consensus of opinion; I just wanted my opinion to be read. I insinuated nothing, and avoided the word "we". I wrote the message telling it like I see it. I get pretty tired of people giving their so-called opinion using the word "we". I wonder who the we represents? Is it the courtly we as used by monarchs, does the we mean me and my yes men and hangers on, does the we merely mean me and the frog in my pocket?
Like you said Leonard, your forum your rules. I can respect that and live with it, no choice really. I didn't really enjoy writing the message, and trust me I mulled it over for the last three days before posting it. I still believe it deserves a read. And before the deadline of the election. Not much chance of it now

I was sorry to see the lawyer cop-out there was nothing in the message that could not survive legal scrutiny.

Tom Perry

Note: edited to correct mis-spelling



Thanks for suffering through this.

Tight Lines,

Tom Perry

[dirtydan]

Tom,

I share your frustration in not being able to make a posting stick sometimes, especially concerning a discussion--and that's all it is from my point of view--which has pretty serious implications for all of us who are concerned about PAMPA.

As you can see, like you I have taken to this site, am looking for more to join in. Gotta love the capitalist system: Lots of choices!

I will tell you that I have not seen Ted's statements, indeed have not yet received latest Stunt News. So I cannot give any reasonable replies to the points you have made.

What I can do, however, is tell you that I have known Ted for many years. More, I have seen him operate in some pretty strenuous and difficult roles within PAMPA. Situations where a short-cut or two here or there, a fib once in awhile, a liberal spreading of disinformation would have made his life soooo much easier. He never did any of these things. Not once.

Never have I known him to be anything other than an absolute straight-shooter. You can disagree with the piece I still have not read, no problem. And maybe his wording was not the best. Or too direct. Whatever...

But I would like to assure you in the strongest terms possible, Ted has his heart in the right place. At all times.

Dan

[rcpaul]

Tom


Saw your post before Leonard deleted it. I agree with you 100% and feel Ted has hurt PAMPA and UC hobby in general. Leonard supports what he believes and nothing else. Interestingly, I understand Leonard is only a sport flier himself and lives PA competition through his son Matt. I gave up contributing to SSW a long time ago and just lurk there.

Paul

[JCAshford]

Hey Guys,

Maybe we can now find a place to discuss some stuff that matters to a lot of us. I also hope we can keep it mostly civil. I feel there are a number of issues which need input from all sides and some things that could be improved (or maybe clarified) with PAMPA's operations and Bylaws. I am just testing this site a little bit after registering. Like the options for color and bold. Real nice touch if one needs some emphasis. Really glad there are smiley faces for da dirt.

[minnesotamodeler]

Some observations:


"Leonard supports what he believes and nothing else."


Interesting criticism...don't we all? Or, do you support things/people/issues you believe are wrong?


"Interestingly, I understand Leonard is only a sport flier himself and lives PA competition through his son Matt."


Heavens...a forum moderator who doesn't fly competition stunt?? The shame... And, "only" a sport flier? You were born a stunt master, I guess. I think I'm insulted.

Yeah, I know, none of my business, I don't know Ted, don't know John, don't know you, don't know Dan, don't know Leonard...but I think I know common sense and fairness. Criticize people's stands, statements, positions...but no point in getting "snippy about it".

--Ray

[JCAshford]

Ray,

I certainly agree with you that people tend to only support what they believe in. My complaint about Len is that he will not let subjects be discussed which he feels are not important or is just tired of. Many of the posts which he has locked down or deleted are the ones that have been the most read and the most responded to.

He is the "forum" host and therefore can certainly control his board but I feel he is censoring and limiting discussion on issues which are important to CLPA. Just because Len doesn't want it discussed doesn't mean that these issues will go away. It does however limit the speed and ease with which various points of view may be weighed and decisions finally made. If I were a forum host I would only limit language. Subjects which are CLPA related would be allowed regardless of my own views and I would probably be criticized for allowing it to be that open.

My point is that if you don't want to talk about the BOM or the VP election then you don't have to read the threads and you sure don't need to reply with something like ..."I'm sick of listening to this". Go on to something else and let those who do want to discuss it get on with it.

This is in no way a personal criticism of Leonard. SSW is a great place for the newbie or retread to gain valuable information about how to solve their problems. I commend Len for his support of this effort but disagree that it should only be limited what glue to use. Many people are going to this board because they agree with this view. I will still use SSW for questions and may occasionally post a response to the modeling inquiries. But as far as issues are concerned Len has decided to not let that happen on SSW so that's why you are reading this.

FYI: I do know all the individuals you mentioned. I don't agree with all of them but I will certainly entertain their points of view and weigh their thoughts about any issue. IMHO, that's what a forum/discussion is all about.

Respectfully,

John

[Garf]

My policy here will pretty much be that as long as you don't get nasty or vicious, call each other names, or say things that are legally liabilous, almost anything goes.

[minnesotamodeler]

JCAshford said:

Ray,

I certainly agree with you that people tend to only support what they believe in. My complaint about Len is that he will not let subjects be discussed which he feels are not important or is just tired of. Many of the posts which he has locked down or deleted are the ones that have been the most read and the most responded to.

He is the "forum" host and therefore can certainly control his board but I feel he is censoring and limiting discussion on issues which are important to CLPA. Just because Len doesn't want it discussed doesn't mean that these issues will go away. It does however limit the speed and ease with which various points of view may be weighed and decisions finally made. If I were a forum host I would only limit language. Subjects which are CLPA related would be allowed regardless of my own views and I would probably be criticized for allowing it to be that open.

My point is that if you don't want to talk about the BOM or the VP election then you don't have to read the threads and you sure don't need to reply with something like ..."I'm sick of listening to this". Go on to something else and let those who do want to discuss it get on with it.

This is in no way a personal criticism of Leonard. SSW is a great place for the newbie or retread to gain valuable information about how to solve their problems. I commend Len for his support of this effort but disagree that it should only be limited what glue to use. Many people are going to this board because they agree with this view. I will still use SSW for questions and may occasionally post a response to the modeling inquiries. But as far as issues are concerned Len has decided to not let that happen on SSW so that's why you are reading this.

FYI: I do know all the individuals you mentioned. I don't agree with all of them but I will certainly entertain their points of view and weigh their thoughts about any issue. IMHO, that's what a forum/discussion is all about.

Respectfully,

John

OK...fair answer. We're square. Thanks.
--Ray

[TreeTopFlyer]

>>My policy here will pretty much be that as long as you don't get nasty or vicious, call each other names, or say things that are legally liabilous, almost anything goes.<<

Fair enough. I just don't see any reason for name calling. You disagree with me, fine. Say so. Tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Great. But try to limit comments about my biological functions, parentage or intellectual capability.

And to note: I do know Ted and have always known him to be a gentleman and knowledgeable CLPA flyer. He has worked for years through PAMPA and locally for the betterment of the event. He got my vote. I don't know John Brodak and so have to make judgements about his presidency based on his column and documented behavior. I try to ignore hearsay and third party information.